Core Principles: Rewarding Heroism in the Pathfinder ACG

Huzzah!

Thank you for a blog post with such critical information about hero points and feats not getting killed by one of Tyler's characters!

I'm in love with the new cards design. Absolutely gorgeous.

I have lost to Ildervok without having any hero points. Don't be me.

I'm in love with the new cards design. Absolutely gorgeous.

+1 to this. Looking forward to when DriveThruCards has these new templates.

I'm a bit unclear on how HP actually operate. I love that Character progression is more customization (if only largely in order of choice) but was curious how the work as a consumable.

When you get one is it a consumable that can be used for a Permanent Upgrade OR a reroll. Or is it an Upgrade AND a reroll? Or the third option is it an Upgrade OR an increase to a pool that refreshes on a regular (say scenario) basis?

It appears that you can gain up to 3 permanent boosts, as now, but you choose the timing, but you get 1 HP per scenario, which should be at least 4 per Adventure Deck series (perhaps 5 or 6 in some cases, depending on layouts). So in the time you are playing in the Adventure Deck, you'll want to use 3 of them for upgrades, but how fast you choose to use them for that vs keeping one in a pocket is the 'interesting choice' they are offering here.

To answer the question of Malk, it looks to be the first answer, with the caveat that you'll only be able to use 3 for permanent effects per Adventure Deck and the rest are munchies in-game.

So wait, if the adventure deck number limits the number of feats you can have, does that mean 6 is the new upper limit on power feats? Or will we be going from Adventure 0-6 to 1-7 instead?

So wait, if the adventure deck number limits the number of feats you can have, does that mean 6 is the new upper limit on power feats? Or will we be going from Adventure 0-6 to 1-7 instead?

This will be discussed in an upcoming blog. Hang loose.

I can't wait to see a review on how the new version runs solo.

Lots of exciting info! Love the flexibility the hero points will give! I'm also very excited about the changes to when you get the role card. There have been a few characters where I really regret being forced into a third feat on the non-role card. Being able to choose from the role card for that third power feat will be great.

The ... blessed by Saranre
perked my interest. Another new mechanic we haven't seen yet
Wonder what it will be

It seems absolutely ludicrous to me that you’re not calling this ACG Second Edition. Every single thing about it screams that it’s something new. And right at the time Pathfinder is getting a second edition...

The game looks and sounds freaking awesome. No need to cling to the past here.

Some things I love about the Hero Point system (to my understanding of it).

It seems absolutely ludicrous to me that you’re not calling this ACG Second Edition. Every single thing about it screams that it’s something new.

Reposting Mike's extensive take on this, so he needn't repeat himself:

I agree the changes are myriad. But there is also continuity, which might currently be obscured by our focus on blog posts about what is new.

+1 to being excited to get this to the table.

You can gain your Role cards earlier, and you can even stockpile Power Feats to only spend them post-Role.

I don't think you'll be able to stockpile. That would make pretty large power gaps at the start of each adventure between characters who have to get their level ups over the next three scenarios and those who immediately hit the power cap for that adventure. It also doesn't encourage spending them and works poorly with the death mechanic.

I will just repeat my three first statements on the newly-improved-not-2.0-PACG :

A) This is fantastic
B) Never comment before having actually played
C) Which makes me scream on why on earth isn't that beauty already on my game table
:-)

Yewstance wrote:

You can gain your Role cards earlier, and you can even stockpile Power Feats to only spend them post-Role.

I don't think you'll be able to stockpile. That would make pretty large power gaps at the start of each adventure between characters who have to get their level ups over the next three scenarios and those who immediately hit the power cap for that adventure. It also doesn't encourage spending them and works poorly with the death mechanic.

I don't see anything presented that suggests you can't hold onto your Hero Points instead of using them for Power Feats, then later spending when you have your Role card.

It wouldn't necessarily cause much of a power difference, either. Some characters/classes are way less power feat dependent than others, and you can still use Skill Feats and get better and better boons. Especially in PFSACG/Organized Play, the power level diversity from team member to team member can already be huge (because it covers characters and class decks over years of content that have wildly changed in balance considerations). I can think of plenty of characters who I don't think change all too much with power feats (except hand size, maybe), especially a few Fighters.

In the Card Guild, they said you'd just earn a Heroic Point after every scenario, so you'll get plenty spare ones no matter what, so it won't be an aspect that you won't have enough if you choose to stockpile some for rerolls/death-tax instead of keeping in-line with power feats.

Its not just power feats, its card feats and skill feats. If you've stockpiled 3 you can just immediately get to your full power level as soon as you hit a new Adv Deck #, rather than smoothly powering up.

I don't see anything presented that suggests you can't hold onto your Hero Points instead of using them for Power Feats, then later spending when you have your Role card.

First, when you are rewarded with a hero point, you can immediately spend it to gain a card, power, or skill feat—your choice.

You can't stockpile feats; you either immediately spend it on a feat or reserve it for a hero point for later. In Curse you could avoid taking power feats until you got your Role, then spend your next several hero points from scenarios on power feats, though.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Society reward structure will give you your role along with your third power feat.

In Organized Play, you have to spend two power feats pre-Role, though.

This afternoon our group played (and succeeded at) Season of Faction's Favor Adventure 4-7: Yeleth of the First Blood - Duel

The reward for completing this adventure is

It looks to me as though the reward will be significantly reduced in value.

Not sure why. Extra cards are always amazing, and blessings and allies can always be used for additional explores.

And allies are likely to be more valuable, I think, not less valuable - because the party can only play one blessing total on a check and therefore ally abilities will be in greater demand.

Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying now. The number of card feats under the new rules (using hero points, etc.) is limited to player level. This reward will immediately violate the new rule - the character will be at level 1, but will start with 2 card feats. Interesting...

The character would have to wait until level 3 to get another card feat? That would be frustrating. Or the designers simply wave their hands and say that the bonus feats don't count towards the total.

An XP system and a remedy for permadeath are things I wanted to see.

Card layouts with red and orange on bright green are NOT what I wanted to see.

It seems to me that the number of card/power/skill feats gained From hero points is limited, but those gained in other ways (one off scenario/adventure rewards, OP/con boons, etc) might not be limited in the same way.

Again, color me excited. Kyra looks fun, always having a weapon or attack spell ready, and automatically being blessed on avenging!

What happens if I want to apply this reward to a character I'm intending to play under the new rules?

For simplicity's sake, this is what the new rulebook says about rewards in older scenarios and APs:

When playing an older Adventure Path, continue to use the feat rewards as listed on the cards; limits on feats don’t apply in those APs. At the end of each adventure, each character gets a hero point that cannot be used to gain a feat.

JohnF wrote:

What happens if I want to apply this reward to a character I'm intending to play under the new rules?

For simplicity's sake, this is what the new rulebook says about rewards in older scenarios and APs:

new rules wrote:

When playing an older Adventure Path, continue to use the feat rewards as listed on the cards; limits on feats don’t apply in those APs. At the end of each adventure, each character gets a hero point that cannot be used to gain a feat.

But this is a slightly odd case - I earn the reward in an older PACG adventure path, but it gets applied to a different character. Does that mean that if I apply the reward to a character that I had just created for playing in the new season of PACS I can still take those two extra card feats? That's obviously the spirit of the reward, but it does mean I'll exceed the permitted number of feats called for in the PACS rules.

Mike Selinker wrote:

JohnF wrote:

What happens if I want to apply this reward to a character I'm intending to play under the new rules?

For simplicity's sake, this is what the new rulebook says about rewards in older scenarios and APs:

new rules wrote:

When playing an older Adventure Path, continue to use the feat rewards as listed on the cards; limits on feats don’t apply in those APs. At the end of each adventure, each character gets a hero point that cannot be used to gain a feat.

But this is a slightly odd case - I earn the reward in an older PACG adventure path, but it gets applied to a different character. Does that mean that if I apply the reward to a character that I had just created for playing in the new season of PACS I can still take those two extra card feats? That's obviously the spirit of the reward, but it does mean I'll exceed the permitted number of feats called for in the PACS rules.

I would infer that the spirit of the reward would hold true - in a post-Core season you'd exceed your Card Feats by 2, just as could happen if you jumped a character between pre-Core/post-Core seasons, or Specials which usually provide Card Feats. That's the benefit the reward is giving you - you just have to remember that you've got 2 'free' feats, I would imagine.

I think it may just be considered an acceptable consequence that mixing pre-Core adventures and/or rewards with post-Core rules may lead to enhanced characters. It's not like powergaming Organized Play characters can't be done already if you were sufficiently motivated: completing a particular adventure in Season 1 will provide you with 3 skill feats. Plus, with the "up to 6 scenarios per Tier" rule you could hypothetically complete that adventure with any/every character you make and still be able to complete the full Adventure Path of another season.

Why are the spells allow extra space for art work while the villains are not allow that same liberty? I don't feel the epicness of fighting the portraits of the bad guys.

I am super excited about this revision to the Adventure Card Game.

Hopefully this catches on more than the original. Our local game shops didn't carry the original and didn't even know what it was when asked about it.
"You mean Pathfinder Munchkin, right?" Sigh ... no.

Again, color me excited. Kyra looks fun, always having a weapon or attack spell ready, and automatically being blessed on avenging!

Maybe I'm missing something, but reading and rereading her role card, how does she always have a weapon or attack spell ready?

eddiephlash wrote:

Again, color me excited. Kyra looks fun, always having a weapon or attack spell ready, and automatically being blessed on avenging!

Maybe I'm missing something, but reading and rereading her role card, how does she always have a weapon or attack spell ready?

"[ ] After you play a weapon or an Attack spell, you may examine the top card of your deck. If it is a weapon or an Attack spell, you may draw it."

Legit question. Who would EVER spend points that give permanent upgrades on a reroll?!?

Conflating "permanent bonuses" and "consumed to reroll" into one mechanic is insane! That's just poor game design! Who's replacing all the wonderful elegance and amazing play of PACG 1e with this parade of bad stuff for 2e?

Legit question. Who would EVER spend points that give permanent upgrades on a reroll?

Same guys who spend xp in the RPG to cast funny spells rather than trying to get a level.

Seriously, just manage to win more Hero Points that you are allowed to spend in feats and your question becomes irrelevant.
Easy no?

emky wrote:

Legit question. Who would EVER spend points that give permanent upgrades on a reroll?

Same guys who spend xp in the RPG to cast funny spells rather than trying to get a level.

That's very different. XP in an RPG is continuous (rather than discrete), and, more importantly, has a GM to make sure things keep together well.

Previous RPGs had you spend XP to make items and cast spells.

Legit question. Who would EVER spend points that give permanent upgrades on a reroll?!?

I strongly disagree with the sentiment, and can think of plenty of situations where this could be used.

Better to sit at a spot and let the clock run out than to risk character (and feat) losses. I get the argument on card feats, sure. But it still doesn't make it not being bad game design to tie a small ephemeral bonus and a permanent character bonus to the same mechanic.

It feels like this was done because they realized they oopsied on limiting characters being able to help each other as much as they used to.

Better to sit at a spot and let the clock run out than to risk character (and feat) losses.

I don't disagree from a strategy perspective, but the designers are clearly aware that a lot of players don't play that way. If they did, nobody would ever die in PACG, and yet plenty of players have complained vocally that they dislike the implementation of the death mechanic and/or that they've houseruled it. PACG fundamentally and permanently penalizes you for death, but doesn't penalize you at all for scenario losses (in fact, it rewards you by letting you earn new cards to try again with).

However, players will usually try to eke out a win even when it gets risky because they want to have fun, they don't want to re-play a scenario and/or they don't have the time to keep restarting scenarios once someone gets close to death (depending on the party). Whilst I think I'd personally have preferred a more cohesive look at handling scenario losses and penalizing players for freely forfeiting and re-starting a scenario, giving out (semi-optional) death wards is clearly a design decision in order to formally enable players to continue a game with their character after they've died.

Better yet, it's an optional mechanic they've added. If you're like me (and like you, I presume - based on the quoted strategy) then you've never experienced character death and probably never will, so instead we get to leverage that same mechanic to warn earlier feats or spare Points for full rerolls. We're rewarded for playing things the old way, and yet players who dislike the old "don't risk death" mindset are in turn given more choice. It seems a strong way to try to enable and reward a diverse array of playstyles and, therefore, appeal to more people.

It feels like this was done because they realized they oopsied on limiting characters being able to help each other as much as they used to.

I think you'll find that you help each other MORE in Core than in previous sets. Looking at all the card previews in this series so far:

Who's replacing all the wonderful elegance and amazing play of PACG 1e with this parade of bad stuff for 2e?

You haven't posted much on this forum, so you might not realize: this level of hostility is dramatically out of line with the tenor of PACG forums. (Kind of like... favoriting your own post.) And also a completely unwarranted judgement of the entire Core Set on the basis of this one quibble, IMHO.

Better to sit at a spot and let the clock run out than to risk character (and feat) losses.

Many PACG gameplaying groups meet once or twice a month for an evening. The opportunity cost of letting the clock run out is quite considerable for these groups, IME, and for that reason they often push the envelope of safety (at least, the ones I am acquainted with do).

It feels like this was done because they realized they oopsied on limiting characters being able to help each other as much as they used to.

Scratching my head about this one. Last week you posted in the thread for the blog post about teamwork in the new set. The addition of the avenge mechanic alone increases the ability to cooperate by an order of magnitude. And as MorkXII points out, a number of character powers and cards previewed so far enable assisting other characters. On the basis of what we've seen - and we haven't seen all that much - the criticism that characters are now *more* limited in helping each other seems wildly premature.

FWIW, I think the reroll mechanic is extension of the popular Paizo-boon rerolls and die bumps long used in Organized Play.

emky wrote:

Better to sit at a spot and let the clock run out than to risk character (and feat) losses.

Many PACG gameplaying groups meet once or twice a month for an evening. The opportunity cost of letting the clock run out is quite considerable for these groups, IME, and for that reason they often push the envelope of safety (at least, the ones I am acquainted with do).

I largely agree with elcoderdude here. If my group is meeting once or twice a month and the use of a reroll allows us to have better chances of winning and less likely to rerun the scenario - Why wouldn't I want to do that? I value my time, as does everyone in our group. We're okay to replay scenarios if needed...but if we had a chance to potentially win, why wouldn't we try to take it?

Additionally, I think if we look at our hero points are structured--They seem to be very carefully crafted to push us towards using them.
1. You can spend them for a feat when you earn them.
2. If you fail a check, one can be used for a reroll.
3. If you die, you use all remaining hero points to bring yourself back.

So with #3....what's the point in saving them? Save one hero point at the start for a revive, then spend them on feats, and then use them on rerolls as necessary while just making sure you always keep 1 hero point available. Whether you have 19 or 1 hero points when you die is irrelevant because they all get spent when you revive yourself.

If the average adventure continues to have five scenarios, and you can buy one of each feat per adventure, that leaves two leftover hero points per adventure to use for rerolls and avoiding death. I'm also in the camp of "why use a point for a one-time reroll when I could have a permanent benefit?" but it seems to be structured so that the permanent benefits cap out, so you might as well take the reroll.

In the 3.X spending XP comparison, it's more like the Eberron artificer, who had a special pool of "extra" XP just for spending on stuff.

The only thing that will suck is having, say, three hero points saved up then dying because of someone else's roll - so you can't use them for rerolls before losing all of them. This can happen, with, say, monsters who hit everyone at their location. Or you could be in a bad situation where rerolls don't matter - rolling a d4 Strength with no weapons or spells against a difficulty 16 bane or such.

The way I see it in general progressing, is that early on people will tend to take feats right away, but by AD#5 or so you might actually want to slow down on feats and increase your safety against the nastier threats.

I guess the hero point death avoidance is supposed to make up for the lack of being able to hide at safe closed locations when near death?

The way I see it in general progressing, is that early on people will tend to take feats right away, but by AD#5 or so you might actually want to slow down on feats and increase your safety against the nastier threats.

I can definitely see that happening. At a certain point "reroll all the dice when I really need to" becomes more valuable than +1 to a d6 skill with which you'll never be able to succeed at anything anyways.

I would ask for some clarity om Kyra's last power:

Given the lack of "this counts as playing a blessing" language, her check being "blessed by Sarenrae" does NOT count towards my "1 Blessing per check" limit, correct?

I think so. You're limited to playing one Blessing per check, and a character card is not a Blessing.

I would ask for some clarity om Kyra's last power:

Given the lack of "this counts as playing a blessing" language, her check being "blessed by Sarenrae" does NOT count towards my "1 Blessing per check" limit, correct?

I think "blessed" is just the new keyword/shorthand for "add a die" but with the added benefit of adding the trait of the deity to the check as well, which I'm sure will have some fun interactions with various cards and powers.

I think "blessed" is just the new keyword/shorthand for "add a die" but with the added benefit of adding the trait of the deity to the check as well, which I'm sure will have some fun interactions with various cards and powers.

Pretty much, yeah.

Legit question. Who would EVER spend points that give permanent upgrades on a reroll?!?

When you're playing organized play, and you are on the last fight against a super annoying villain in one of those Petersonian scenarios where they punish you for drawing breath ("if any character card has a green border, all characters take 1d20 damage" - so much fun!), and you roll and fail by just a little...yes, I can totally foresee it.

Upon reading that Core+ gave you your role card earlier, I was excited to think that meant "more post-role power feats"; but now I'm realizing it simply means "less total power feats". For every previous AP and Season, you'd gain a minimum of 7 power feats, 3 pre-role and 4+ post-role. Now, with the hard cap of 6 power feats in Adventure Level 6, getting your role at end of 2/ start of 3 simply means 2 pre-role feats and 4 post-role feats.

As someone who loves power feats, that's kind of disappointing. Unless future paths will regularly have adventures going up to levels 7+?

Upon reading that Core+ gave you your role card earlier, I was excited to think that meant "more post-role power feats"; but now I'm realizing it simply means "less total power feats".

This is addressed above, sorta.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sgm4?Core-Principles-Rewarding-He roism-in-the#9

Sounds like there's more info to be had on the topic (in a future blog post), and that there aren't necessarily fewer power feats.